daraknor (daraknor) wrote in newatlantis,
daraknor
daraknor
newatlantis

Values and Systems dialog

Here is a dialog about the "real issues" I'm currently facing. This doesn't provide any answers but it does at least point to the problem. As always, I'm very interested in feedback, hopefully more than a single line!


lisa: When Tom and Dux visited me this spring we went to the Museum of the Oregon Territory, here in OC. There was an exhibit, nominally about the pre-European inhabitants of the Willamette Falls area, including some very cool artifacts.
lisa: But it was impossible to figure anything useful out at all from the exhibit, it was so dismally curated. There was no story, no chronolgy, no attempt to make -sense- of the collection.
daraknor1: lol that is awful
lisa: Lisa, whose professional expertise is -all about- the organization of information, both verbal ad visual, was, er, apoplectic.
lisa: Wouldn't shut up about it the whole way home. (Tom, rather more mildly, objected to some of the Eurocentric content.)
lisa: That kind of thing drives me nuts.
lisa: I have a similar difficulty---not as severe---with New Atlantis. Evidently it has been just a discussion forum, with no attempt being made to present the concept.
lisa: Time to get your water fowl in alignment, I'd say.
daraknor1: The concept has been transitional. I avoided a definition since we lacked one
lisa: Well, even many of the -pieces- lack definition...at least, as far as I was motivated to delve. What -exactly- do you mean by "freedom"? For example.
lisa: Don't tell me now. I just think it's maybe time to nail a few things down, if you are hoping to involve others.
lisa: Somebody at one point said "how about a website?"
daraknor1: *nod* now is the time I'm looking for value systems content... I have a chicken and egg problem
lisa: Don't we all? :D
lisa: So, your current question is "what do we really believe is important?"
daraknor1: *nod*
daraknor1: what you see is me trying to collect that information
lisa: From...?
daraknor1: i don't trust any answer of my own, i'm trying to record the journey of getting that answer from others
lisa: Yes, which others? Miscellaneous other groups?
daraknor1: but doesn't the conflict of one person bring others who have similar issues?
daraknor1: I don't find them as much as they find me
lisa: What about the people who find you, scratch their heads, and move on?
daraknor1: I think that the time is here for when we need people who offer what you offer.
lisa: Charm and good looks?
daraknor1: ehehhe i agreed that Clock of the Long Now was missing something, but I didn't know how to explain the qualia
daraknor1: Clock of Long Now is missing a few gears...
lisa: which gears, would you say?
daraknor1: people contribute different things, our group is lacking a lot of things
lisa: As, you feel, the Clock is? What does your group lack?
lisa: What does the Clock lack?
daraknor1: we lack a value system
lisa: Well, but surely you have "values"? Explicit or implicit? One generally -starts- with those.
daraknor1: well i ditched all mine because i waned something new
lisa: What did you ditch?
daraknor1: most of my values won't apply in a new society
lisa: Please be specific. What do you feel you need to jettison, and why?
lisa: In 500 words or less.
lisa: :D
lisa: Perhaps more importantly, what are you personally keeping in the way of values?
daraknor1: I don't know what values I will keep when I enter through the door I don't see yet.
lisa: That's back asswards. You are, by definition, driven by -some- values. You have to start with those and then build.
lisa: This may not be the ideal medium for this sort of discussion.
daraknor1: it probably is not, lets save that part for later
lisa: OK.
daraknor1: the person i am today only knows that i am not the person i need to be for that future event
daraknor1: Each system has stated and implied values. Eventually the implied values overrun the system.
lisa: Must they? What if we are very conscious of what they are?
daraknor1: I cannot halt that, but if the stated and implied values both reflect the system and the system reflects them (a 1 to 1 isomorphism) then the corruption is slower and more likely to come from externalities.
lisa: Ah.
daraknor1: At this point, I am hesitant to design either a system or value code
lisa: Presumably this was true of (theoretical) Leaver "systems."
daraknor1: They certainly had very active feedback, and probably no notion of privacy either
lisa: I don't think you get to design a value system. I think you get to try a few things and see what the universe does with them. (Usually not pretty.)
lisa: So, "how important is privacy as a value?" would be one of the questions to answer, and I do see it pops up on NA from time to time.
daraknor1: ... I thought it would be apparent that by designing a new system, we design a new value code
lisa: Uhh...you already have a value code. Largely implicit, perhaps. The system you are designing reflects that. They are interactive systems, both subject to modification one by the other, to some degree.
daraknor1: I am not prepared to design the system without the value code. I propose alternatives and hope others reflect upon them. My personal desire is that the things I propose are shown to be flawed in some way.
lisa: It is not humanly possible to design -without- a pre-existing code. You have one. Period. I think we are talking a cross-purposes. We ought to get together multi-dimensionally.
daraknor1: I'm hoping to make some progress on this question before The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
lisa: Yes, that would be good for the digestion, I feel.
daraknor1: what values do you have for a community that would set an example?
daraknor1: I value freedom, innovation (survival), exceptional people (innovation), a connection with others (base level), truth (survival and connection)
lisa: Love.

[unfortunately we had to stop here]
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