lisa: When Tom and Dux visited me this spring we went to the Museum of the Oregon Territory, here in OC. There was an exhibit, nominally about the pre-European inhabitants of the Willamette Falls area, including some very cool artifacts.
lisa: But it was impossible to figure anything useful out at all from the exhibit, it was so dismally curated. There was no story, no chronolgy, no attempt to make -sense- of the collection.
daraknor1: lol that is awful
lisa: Lisa, whose professional expertise is -all about- the organization of information, both verbal ad visual, was, er, apoplectic.
lisa: Wouldn't shut up about it the whole way home. (Tom, rather more mildly, objected to some of the Eurocentric content.)
lisa: That kind of thing drives me nuts.
lisa: I have a similar difficulty---not as severe---with New Atlantis. Evidently it has been just a discussion forum, with no attempt being made to present the concept.
lisa: Time to get your water fowl in alignment, I'd say.
daraknor1: The concept has been transitional. I avoided a definition since we lacked one
lisa: Well, even many of the -pieces- lack definition...at least, as far as I was motivated to delve. What -exactly- do you mean by "freedom"? For example.
lisa: Don't tell me now. I just think it's maybe time to nail a few things down, if you are hoping to involve others.
lisa: Somebody at one point said "how about a website?"
daraknor1: *nod* now is the time I'm looking for value systems content... I have a chicken and egg problem
lisa: Don't we all? :D
lisa: So, your current question is "what do we really believe is important?"
daraknor1: what you see is me trying to collect that information
daraknor1: i don't trust any answer of my own, i'm trying to record the journey of getting that answer from others
lisa: Yes, which others? Miscellaneous other groups?
daraknor1: but doesn't the conflict of one person bring others who have similar issues?
daraknor1: I don't find them as much as they find me
lisa: What about the people who find you, scratch their heads, and move on?
daraknor1: I think that the time is here for when we need people who offer what you offer.
lisa: Charm and good looks?
daraknor1: ehehhe i agreed that Clock of the Long Now was missing something, but I didn't know how to explain the qualia
daraknor1: Clock of Long Now is missing a few gears...
lisa: which gears, would you say?
daraknor1: people contribute different things, our group is lacking a lot of things
lisa: As, you feel, the Clock is? What does your group lack?
lisa: What does the Clock lack?
daraknor1: we lack a value system
lisa: Well, but surely you have "values"? Explicit or implicit? One generally -starts- with those.
daraknor1: well i ditched all mine because i waned something new
lisa: What did you ditch?
daraknor1: most of my values won't apply in a new society
lisa: Please be specific. What do you feel you need to jettison, and why?
lisa: In 500 words or less.
lisa: Perhaps more importantly, what are you personally keeping in the way of values?
daraknor1: I don't know what values I will keep when I enter through the door I don't see yet.
lisa: That's back asswards. You are, by definition, driven by -some- values. You have to start with those and then build.
lisa: This may not be the ideal medium for this sort of discussion.
daraknor1: it probably is not, lets save that part for later
daraknor1: the person i am today only knows that i am not the person i need to be for that future event
daraknor1: Each system has stated and implied values. Eventually the implied values overrun the system.
lisa: Must they? What if we are very conscious of what they are?
daraknor1: I cannot halt that, but if the stated and implied values both reflect the system and the system reflects them (a 1 to 1 isomorphism) then the corruption is slower and more likely to come from externalities.
daraknor1: At this point, I am hesitant to design either a system or value code
lisa: Presumably this was true of (theoretical) Leaver "systems."
daraknor1: They certainly had very active feedback, and probably no notion of privacy either
lisa: I don't think you get to design a value system. I think you get to try a few things and see what the universe does with them. (Usually not pretty.)
lisa: So, "how important is privacy as a value?" would be one of the questions to answer, and I do see it pops up on NA from time to time.
daraknor1: ... I thought it would be apparent that by designing a new system, we design a new value code
lisa: Uhh...you already have a value code. Largely implicit, perhaps. The system you are designing reflects that. They are interactive systems, both subject to modification one by the other, to some degree.
daraknor1: I am not prepared to design the system without the value code. I propose alternatives and hope others reflect upon them. My personal desire is that the things I propose are shown to be flawed in some way.
lisa: It is not humanly possible to design -without- a pre-existing code. You have one. Period. I think we are talking a cross-purposes. We ought to get together multi-dimensionally.
daraknor1: I'm hoping to make some progress on this question before The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
lisa: Yes, that would be good for the digestion, I feel.
daraknor1: what values do you have for a community that would set an example?
daraknor1: I value freedom, innovation (survival), exceptional people (innovation), a connection with others (base level), truth (survival and connection)
[unfortunately we had to stop here]