daraknor1: the general topic and utility of "privacy", and our conversation cover the different subtopics of privacy
ebbonygirl1: My personal fifteen cents to add on the topic, is that privacy should be decided on the individual basis. Some situations will deem privacy to be necessary, other situations, it will not be
daraknor1: like what? can you name any situation where privacy is important?
ebbonygirl1: it depends what the goal is
ebbonygirl1: On a personal basis, I love my privacy. On a group basis....If NA is developing something that the government of the current area (costa rica) doesn't approve of, then privacy may be necessary
ebbonygirl1: to give a more specific example (using the US cuz I don't know the rules in costa rica) if we wanted to do stem cell research, the US doesn't allow that, for no good reason. Thus we cannot have it well known that we are doing it or we will have a bunch of pro-lifers or similar Bush assholes telling us to not do it
ebbonygirl1: thus we would have to keep it under wraps
daraknor1: bush just doesn't grant funding to it
ebbonygirl1: that's not my point. If it were illegal, he would stop us from doing the research we are trying to pursue. If it were cells from willing doners and no harm is being caused, then privacy would be necessary
daraknor1: to avoid bringing the point to a head?
ebbonygirl1: what I am trying to say is that the government of wherever NA ends up may not approve of whatever we are trying to do, so we may just find it easier to not tell them of our work
daraknor1: okay, do you have any examples besides avoiding opression?
ebbonygirl1: I'm not saying that this is necessary. If the group would prefer to just have everything in the open, I'm all for it. I'm just saying sometimes it would be easier to have increased privacy
ebbonygirl1: I don't know. Mostly I am just trying to say that there may be situations where privacy may be desired, and trying to give examples. I will try to think of something else.
ebbonygirl1: Maybe to try to avoid unwanted attention?
daraknor1: Joseph and I were talking about this, and the only time we found privacy valuable was when we were plotting against the system we found to be unrighteous
daraknor1: *nod* that is really the right to be left alone ;)
ebbonygirl1: like the ultralight helicopters that Sean is trying to come up with. Someone may try to come in and get in on the action.
ebbonygirl1: yeah, basically
ebbonygirl1: what is the difference between privacy and the right to be left alone?
daraknor1: if they don't know about it they can't interfere... privacy protects the right to be left alone by another degree
daraknor1: but in an information society, privacy essentially is opposed to proper functioning of many systems
ebbonygirl1: well, for what reason would NA want to be left alone that NA would not want privacy to protect that?
daraknor1: The entire society?
daraknor1: or a person in that society?
daraknor1: If we are doing good work, wouldn't we want to attract funding, expertise, customers?
ebbonygirl1: I don't know what to say
ebbonygirl1: I'm not trying to convince you that NA has to be secluded completely or anything like that
daraknor1: most situations we would want or projects to be known
daraknor1: *nod* we're debating the merits of privacy as an abstract
ebbonygirl1: I guess what I am trying to say is that we don't want to completely close off the option. Sometime we may want to be held in private. I guess this just goes into my "there is nothing that can't be changed if the situation demands it" trying to keep everything maleable
ebbonygirl1: or somthing
ebbonygirl1: so how about privacy on an individual basis?
ebbonygirl1: what would that mean to you?
daraknor1: nothing here personally
daraknor1: the only time i want privacy is to avoid the contradictory and irrational actions of society and government
ebbonygirl1: no one would have their right to privacy? just their right to be left alone?
ebbonygirl1: I guess it makes sense...in a way
daraknor1: perhaps we could say "privacy" when we want to be left alone
ebbonygirl1: but no one has the right to have something that cannot be ...searched?...by others in the group?
daraknor1: well that is a different aspect...
ebbonygirl1: ok, then what is the aspect that you are trying to focus on?
daraknor1: part of it is privacy, part of it is social norms
daraknor1: well lets change topic to the new area...
daraknor1: New Atlantis will still need to adhere to international laws, and local laws [while existing in other countries like Costa Rica]
daraknor1: there are international laws regarding drugs, that suck very horribly
ebbonygirl1: and that is why you want to be outside of established government
daraknor1: if one of the sailors on a multimillion dollar boat has an ounce of marijuana, the entire boat is seized
daraknor1: and all the cargo
ebbonygirl1: holy shit
daraknor1: you know those big ocean liners coming from china? thousands of containers full of electronics...
ebbonygirl1: we'll have to make sure no one is smuggling then....
daraknor1: all of it, and the boat is now government property
daraknor1: yeah... :/
ebbonygirl1: wow. That could get expensive in a hurry
daraknor1: mouy mouy importante!
daraknor1: very very important...
ebbonygirl1: which government?
ebbonygirl1: which government would have the right to seize something like that?
daraknor1: the US claims that right
as do many others
ebbonygirl1: how much (if any) of the oceans is not claimed as government territory?
daraknor1: ... that is a very complicated question.. because there is national territory, exclusive economic zone, and then the law of the sea where international law applies
[change of topic again]